Thursday, December 4, 2008

[Druid] Naxx 25, health and you

Last night was our guild's first 'official' 25-man raid. We did fairly well, downing spider, plague and half of construct wing before having to call it a night.

And as Flyv pointed out recently, it's pretty easy. The only difficult trash mobs were the gargoyles that, at 30% start casting stoneskin which will heal. Everything else was AoE killed without any concern. We didn't have any deaths in the entire raid until the start of the military quarter - 6 bosses in. We wiped exactly twice - once on Razuvious due to some confusion on the mechanics, and once on Gluth. We even did the Safety dance flawlessly.

We've got 3 raid nights ahead of us and I fully expect that we'll be able to clear all of Naxx in that time - and likely get a good couple of looks at Malygos. We've already downed Sartharion in 25 and may do that again, as it's an easy 4 emblems, a 22 slot bag and a couple of nice T7 gloves.

On a personal note, I got basically the best upgrades I could hope for on the run: Valorous Shoulders and Origin of Nightmares. With those two pieces I am over 40k health raid buffed along with 33k armor. Now, keep in mind that I'm a Tauren Leatherworker, so I get a lot of health from those two sources - but also keep in mind that I am still using T6 helm and chest, BC trinkets, BC cloak and only 3 pieces of Naxx gear at all (10 or 25 man). Everything else is dungeon blues or epics. I fully expect quite a few upgrades coming up, especially to armor.

The Patchwerk fight was pretty interesting too. Thanks to the higher avoidance and high health pool, I took 3 times as many hateful strikes (161 vs 49) as the next warrior tank. Each hateful hit for 3k less damage, and they were avoided 4% more often. This is factoring block into the equation as well; block simply does not compare with armor when you're talking a 50k base damage hit. Even with my fairly poor gear (this was before the upgrades) I was still doing better than the T7-10 geared tank. Threat isn't an issue on this fight except that I had to tone down my attack rotation as I was close to surpassing the MT (this is because hatefuls give extra threat, not because our MT sucks at threat generation or I'm OMG awesome at it). At least on Patchwerk there's nothing mechanically bad about being a druid tank. Whether it's fun or interesting or whether we have the right tools for easymode raiding - well, that's another post in the making.

It's also unclear whether something like Patchwerk is a fair benchmark for gauging tank strength and consideration. True, it's one of the only fights where a tank's gear really does matter, but it also heavily favors a druid tank due to the high damage hits and high soaking requirements. It's likely that Gluth is a better fight to compare, as tanks have to go back and forth and he hits for medium damage, allowing you to judge exactly how two tanks are doing in the same situation.

All in all, it feels very much like Sunwell Plateau did post 3.0.2. Gluth requires some actual coordination, so I expect it to take a few attempts to get it down - but it's not all that hard. Razuvious requires our priests to do something they're not used to, so I expect that to take a couple tries. 4 horsemen is probably going to be the next challenge after that, but I don't think it's going to be a killer either. And none of these things is going to require the fairly good coordination and performance that Brutallus (pre-nerf) or Illidan did. It's exciting to be downing new bosses and all, but it's somewhat of a letdown on how easy it is.


Druidus said...

Hi Kalon... I would like to ask you a question a little off-topic...

There is having quite a discussion over new mechanics for druid tanks.
Like removing the cooldown from leader of the pack proc or removing the restriction from Nurturing Instinct (+20% healing which currently only applies to cats) or maybe a conversion of AP/Str to parry.

What is your take on this? What would you suggest? The nurturing instincts seems good and very druidistic and we wouldnt require much more mana to keep alive than other classes.

I havent set foot on raids yet but I do heroics with no problem but it seems that BC is still alive with the "warrior is the best tank from miles away" mindset that I often find in my guild...

I know that part of the mana-sponge reputation come from druids that stack stamina and forget dodge/armor, but still we could use more mitigation tools...

Anonymous said...

Grats on the kill.

As far as letdown goes, I'm sure you already know that Blizzard have designed these instances to be introduction instances, so many more players get to see raid content and dont get put off. The upper echelons of players will find them "too easy".

This seems like a very sound & generous decision on Blizzards part, and is of enormous benefit to a far vaster majority of players, than it is a disappointment to a few.

Kalon said...

Anon - thanks. ;)

And yeah, I do know that these instances are purposely tuned to be easier than before. As stated by GC recently, the fact that I'm 80 alone puts me well ahead of a lot of other people out there, so the instances being easy isn't that much of a surprise. They are working as intended.

And I agree - having more people see more content is a good thing. I like that. At the same time, I really miss the days where the difference between easy heroics and hard heroics was a huge gulf, and hard heroics were damn hard. I miss having to do intricate pulls on trash that required CC and timing. I miss that coordination of raiding. But I have confidence they'll bring it back; the public outcry right now is too high for them not to.

Druidus - that sounds like a really excellent idea for an article in the future. :) The short answer is that I strongly believe a conversion of at least one offensive stat (and preferably more) is the right way to go, as it makes rogue gear more naturally desirable, increases scaling quality, and reduces the chance that one stat is just 'too good'.

Anonymous said...

Hey kalon thanks for your views. Yes, I also sort of miss the intricate pulls, but its nice not to have to wait on raiding till I have better gear either - its kind of double edged. You gotta admit too, that Naxx is beautiful and a massive step up from BC raids. I really feel I'm playing a video game, not wrestling to control my own frustration a lot of the time. I get to spend more time playing, and less time nitpicking.

I'm speculating more of the ZA style achievements will be the future for us leeters, as we're currently seeing. We all love them; its a big motive to play well (but not necessarily play a lot). And if you fail the challenge and dont get the rare-colored birdie... well, no biggie. Its not like never having stepped foot in places as gorgeous as sunwell & bt. If you play flawlessly, you get a vanity reward - not entire raid instances designed just for you.

I'm also interested in other ways to challenge the upper echelons, without needing to spend massive amounts of everyone's subscription dollars to do so.

Kalon said...

I'm also interested in other ways to challenge the upper echelons, without needing to spend massive amounts of everyone's subscription dollars to do so.

I agree completely. More encounters similar to the ZA timed run and Sartharion would be excellent. I am all for raid encounters being interesting but not hugely difficult on the 'basic' level and ramping up due to some arbitrary encounter mechanic that is completely optional. Vanity loot is perfect for this, as it doesn't hurt people who can't do it but shows off better skills. I like having best in slot for trivial slots too; better trinkets would be perfect for this.

Marino said...

Yeah they are pretty easy. in our second week of raiding 25 man (gottena bit geared) we oneshotted every boss in 10 man naxx in 3.3 hours. I was offtank and had only seen 3 different bosses at 25. So I had 12 new bosses at 10 man. Still oneshotting.

Yesterday was our 3rd week of naxx 25 and we oneshotted 12 bosses in 4 hours time. 4 left for today. I myself wasn;t there, but it sure feels nothing like making progress in even Karazan in TBC.

I sure hope it will change.

PS on the patchwork and Gluth Fights;
Patchwork really requires a druid. First kill was a bit tough. The second I was so well geared that due to armor and life I could take 2 hits without dying. That was sure a real relief on our healers. A mistake would not mean an almost certain wipe anymore.
Gluth is pretty easy (I would almost say boring) for the druid tank unless you need to pick up all those zombies. That was my task the first time we did it. NOT a druids job at all. Pala or DK is really much favored for that job.

Ded said...

I have an idea how to convert all offensive stats on our gear into mitigation.

This should come via new Protector of the Pack talent:
Increases your attack power in Bear and Dire bear form by 2% and reduces damage taken while in Bear or Dire Bear form by 4%. In addition, anytime you get a critical strike in bear or Dire Bear Form, you absorb X % of damage done within next 5 seconds.

What this change will do to us? The higher our critical rating and attack power, the more mitigation will we get from this talent.

Lets say, I crit boss with 4000 maul, and X is 10%. For 3 talent points I will reduce incoming damage within next 5 sec by 4000 x 30% = 1200.

Damage absorb can stack and it is basically depends on our every offensive stat, even haste rating!

And imagine how busy our theorycrafters will be by trying to figure out best mix of classic mitigation stats and new offensive stats!

This change will make perfect sense for druids using rogue leather for tanking. It will never make us overpowered in PvP and will actually motivate us to bump up our damage because we benefit as a tanks from it.

Kalon – what do you say about this change?

Evermore said...

i made you a new banner, for your webside i hope you like it

Evermore said...

There's the link

Druidus said...

Ded, why not just remove the cooldown from ILotP?
We already have that mechanic but with a cooldown on it.
We as druids already crit a lot, if we get a shield at every crit we would be immune for most of the fights, and a nerf would come next...

Anonymous said...

Thanks for the info on patchwork; had my first try at it last night, and found the same thing: I was taking about 4-5k less in damage on every hurtful, and our healers had a much easier time keeping me up. It was nice to find a fight in wrath that was at least semi-challenging for a tank.

Anonymous said...

Last night was my guilds first run of naxx 10. As the MT druid I had 38k hp, 27k armor, and 35% dodge, and naxx destroyed us.

Keep in mind, it was not pre-aranged (saw 10 people on and decided to go try it), no one knew the bosses (or was looking at a guide), and we only had 1 hour, but im starting to wonder if my stats are good enough.

Anyone have an opinion? for 10 or 25

Shamad said...

Anonymous; imho your stats are easily good enough to OT naxx10/25, probably to MT naxx10 atleast. Start in Arachnid Quarter, then plague, then construct, military is the only one with a somewhat tricky fight(first boss, Razuvious), and that's only really an issue for 2 people to learn to juggle the MC'ing(easier on 10man with the provided controls).

If you did fail f.ex. on Patchwerk, it's more likely because healing wasn't fast enough to get tanks up to full health than because the tanks took too much damage or didn't have enough health. Good healers land a 10k heal every 2.5 seconds minimum, with 30k healing landing every 2.5 seconds that should easily outheal patchwerk. Each dps doing around 2k dps which seems to be a pretty much entry level raiddps is enough to beat any timers as long as the dps doesn't get themselves killed by standing in the fire or such.

Kalon said...

Ded - that's one of the ideas I've seen around for a while. I like it okay, but it doesn't seem all that intuitive to use. It also means that agility will once again become the stat that far overwhelms any other in terms of what you want, and doesn't really make you want a lot of rogue gear any more than some of the PvP gear.'s not reliable, though it's fair to say that it's as unreliable as block is for a warrior most of the time.

Druidus, the problem with iLotP is that it's just not something that you can rely on. It only works on damage that's been dealt, and by the time it's been dealt the healers have to assume you're not going to get healed by it. Which means in practice it's going to be overheal most of the time, and at best it's going to be some kind of HoT. And it suffers from the same problem of being confusing in terms of gear - is agility better then? Crit rating? AP? Strength? Hit? It's not very obvious.

Anon1 - glad to hear it helped. And on 25-man Patchwerk I think druids are clearly the best tanks at the same gear level right now. It's not really a contest. Honestly, I'm tempted to stack a ton of stam on that so that I will be the choice to take two hits all the time, and deny any other tank anything.

Anon2 - your stats look fine and are about what mine were for Naxx25 and Naxx10. Your armor is a bit low, but it should be okay, and your health is fine. Naxx10 is actually harder than Naxx25 right now, and one player's badness can really stand out compared to the 25 man version. Fights still require some coordination and knowing what to do, so don't feel so bad about not being able to just walk in and collect loot. But gear wise? You're probably ok.

Or what Shamad said. :)

Shamad said...

Somewhat related, I'm gearing up for tanking sartharion with 3 adds up, so I want to get past the 50k hp mark. I'm crafting all the frost-resist gear but beyond that, is there anything with silly amounts of stamina that I should be looking out for?

Anonymous said...

Yeah agreed on patchwerk druids are by far the best tank: I was regularly taking 5k less damage on every hit (15k-20k) and had ~39k health.

Kalon, I'm bored. The game is boring. Even 25 man feels like a joke, as we casually clear our way through it with noobs in unenchanted greens. Maybe the guild I'm in is just too casual, not really sure. When we wiped last night on heroic 4 horsemen, it felt like wiping in slave pens: humiliating, unnecessary, and who really cares about the loot anyways, since we dont need it to beat the game. Weird times.

Anonymous said...

I’m thinking my problem was what you mentioned, one bad person throwing it off, except I can name more than one (the other tank, two of my healers, two of my dps) and it is making me consider going to another guild with the amount of headaches I get trying to lead these people. I was still kinda hoping that with better gear I would be able to brute force my way through there. Going to try Sartharion with no drakes up and if they can’t do that I'll be looking else where.

Anonymous said...

Anon - i was in a crappy guild full of bad players, some of whom were my friends... or at least I felt some attachment. But I wasnt enjoying the game. Then I switched guilds and its been awesome.

Dont be afraid to say bye bye to players whose playstyle and skill levels dont match yours. Its a game, and if you're bored & frustrated, something should change. In my experince, players I view as crappy tend to view themselves as "fine" - therefore they never improve, and they continue to frustrate me. Just move on and find like-minded players your issues with idiot players in raids will disappear.

Kalon said...

Evermore - thanks for coming by, and thanks for the banner! I really like it, but I'm going to stick with the one I have at least for now. For many reasons, the least of which is that my wife designed it. :) If you would let me, I'd love to use some of the parts in the banner :)

Shamad - on getting to the 50k stam barrier, there aren't that many secrets. Essence of Gossamer, Polar gear, leatherworking, heavy borean leather kits, and some of the non-armor jewelry pieces. Heck, mining would help. :) Good luck with it!

Many Anons - it's tough leaving guildies and tougher leaving friends, but as Anon the latter said - it's a game, you're supposed to have fun. You can always do things with your friends outside of the guild, but it is very important to be part of something you agree with. Nothing is less fun than hanging out with a bunch of people that aren't interested in doing the things you are. I'd recommend making suggestions to your leaders and seeing if you can make improvements, and then if that doesn't work, moving on.

Anonymous said...

well congratz on doin ur stuff... got a question for the people who thought the old "hard" heroics were hard, which one did yall find the hardest? i thought crypts was

Shamad said...

I suppose most people would agree that the hardest were Shattered Halls because of the gauntlet and MGT because of the 3rd boss and the ridiculous amount of cc "needed" for it. Personally I also really disliked Arcatraz first boss.

For sure there's nothing to compete with these in difficulty in the current heroics, closest thing is the slightly annoying skadi-encounter in UP, which becomes a lot easier when you have good gear and can just charge into the mobs before they spread out along the length of the path.

gerry said...

I'm coming from a different perspective than many of you guys. My guild is pretty casual and not well-geared or generally familiar with Naxx40, and for us Naxx10 is a pretty good challenge.

We got to 5/6 SSC and 2/4 TK before 3.0.2. We certainly can't breeze through Naxx10 or compare it to Sunwell like one poster did. We've never been to Sunwell, though we did some bosses in MH and BT after the patch.

The bosses are much easier than earlier raid bosses, it's true; we may not be the fastest learners in the word but we cleared 12 bosses this week so far, and Thaddius has only survived due to our mistakes. The longest we've taken on one boss is about 2 hours I suppose; Gruul and Leotheras each took us several days!

Realistically, we are not the elite players many of you are writing for, I suppose, but we probably represent a good section of the WoW populace. I think the raid achievement system is a good compromise so long as the achievements are not too abstruse and the rewards are okay - nice mounts or vanity pets, or trinkets that are not mindblowingly great but have cool effects would do.

For us Naxx25 will be harder than Naxx10 because we will need a bit more gear, and also we may have more difficulty getting 25 'good' players in there at once. So unlike some of the posters here, we have plenty of content to get through and won't get bored any time soon.

Shamad said...

The problem is that naxx25 really isn't any harder than naxx10, it's in some ways easier. You need more people, but it forgives more deaths, more failures. This in essence is the problem a lot of people are having with the current content, not that 10man is easy and suited for casual raiders, but that 25man is easy and provides now challenge for serious guilds. Gear just doesn't feel as great when you don't have to work for it.