tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post801351003439597110..comments2023-10-03T03:48:35.523-07:00Comments on ThinkTank: [Druid] Savage Defense guesses (with math!)Kalonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05193899462301079034noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-64555581340001085702009-04-14T09:29:00.000-07:002009-04-14T09:29:00.000-07:00Anon - thanks for writing. And yes, lacerate critt...Anon - thanks for writing. And yes, lacerate critting (and proccing SD) does work, and will increase the potential uptime. With the bugs that were reported in the PTR it's hard to say what the actual uptime is going to be, though.Kalonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05193899462301079034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-25055650441351532382009-03-04T14:26:00.000-08:002009-03-04T14:26:00.000-08:00Question, with the addition of Primal Gore to the ...Question, with the addition of Primal Gore to the talent tree, which allows Lacerate to Crit, will this increase the up time of SD esp for single target mobs, ie Bosses?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-68599548156797011222009-03-03T21:51:00.000-08:002009-03-03T21:51:00.000-08:00Nicolai, thanks for writing. I think in this case ...Nicolai, thanks for writing. I think in this case you've gotten some very wrong information; I just logged into the PTR and Savage Defense still isn't trainable. GC mentioned earlier today that it won't be trainable for another patch or two.Kalonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05193899462301079034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-79198049149497289482009-03-03T21:22:00.000-08:002009-03-03T21:22:00.000-08:00Having just heard back from the PTR, the Savage De...Having just heard back from the PTR, the Savage Defense shield has a hidden 6 second cooldown. This no doubt produces wildly different numbers.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10058262012490014324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-7833942720646324052009-02-23T06:38:00.000-08:002009-02-23T06:38:00.000-08:00"That's a big assumption against single targets, I..."That's a big assumption against single targets, I agree, but it's not unreasonable. With that in mind the numbers should be a bit more reasonable."<BR/><BR/>Yes. It is unreasonable. Over time, vs a single target, given decent avoidance, you will have numerous shields overwritten by new shields. On the other hand, you will avoid many unshielded attacks. The rates you use are, quite simply, not useful because they do not incorporate this fact.<BR/><BR/>Similarly, vs. multiple mobs you will have also have significant overwrites. Since you are working with about a 2 sec attack speed and a 1.5 sec GCD, factoring in a little bit of lag, you will often (if not pretty much always) have crits landing within half a second of each other. Not getting hit for half a second vs. 5 mobs is not an infrequent occurrence. <BR/><BR/>You also assumed basically heroic mobs. Most trash in heroic naxx (which I believe is the gear level you're using) hits for significantly more than 10k unmodified. Move 10K up to 15K and the relative value decreases dramatically.<BR/><BR/>Your numbers are aimed at the maximum, using the unrealistic assumption that every shield gets used. Your armor numbers use ten significant figures; your methodology probably doesn't justify two significant figures.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-36578221926859256102009-02-18T06:34:00.000-08:002009-02-18T06:34:00.000-08:00Despite the fact that we have less crits in pvp, r...Despite the fact that we have less crits in pvp, resilience have no influence on talent/skill/trinket procs on crits.<BR/>Only defense and talents which reduce crits are taken into account to know if you actually do a crit and proc something. Then resilience is applied to know whether the damage is a crit.<BR/><BR/>It was introduced due to the fact that resilience is only a damage reduction, not a spec killer for some specs which depends on crits more than other specs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-26958913792292992922009-02-16T17:54:00.000-08:002009-02-16T17:54:00.000-08:00Yeah man I've been reading your stuff for a while ...Yeah man I've been reading your stuff for a while now. Great reads for sure.<BR/><BR/>Here's how I was looking at it:<BR/>Essentially you could divide the damage that we take into two categories: one is a baseline sustained damage that we take, the other is big spikey hits that don't happen as often. The spikey hits are what make my healers panic, while the baseline damage can be handled farily easily especially with diverse healing (i.e. HoTs stacked, direct heals coming in, etc).<BR/><BR/>So from this point of view, the nerfed armor raises the level of the baseline damage. We'll be taking more sustained damage on average. But those big spikes have a chance (equal to my crit) to be not quite as big. So from a healer's perspective, who is staring at my HP, those bigger hits are attenuated by a good chunk. Instead of a sudden 10k hit, I'll take an 8k hit. That would be less spikey for the healer. Realistically, the baseline damage is most likely handled by HoTs, melee chain heals and the like.<BR/><BR/>What you're saying makes sense too. So I'll have some thinking to do! :D<BR/><BR/>As for the SotF nerf, I believe the Blue couldn't quite recall the exact numbers and gave the numbers that are circulating now as an "assumption." I don't know if I should be hoping that the devs are crunching numbers or not at this point though. They've been overnerfing and overbuffing a lot, which kinda makes me feel like they don't know WTF they're doing. My favorite F-up is how for the longest time they insisted that warlock pets were fine and needed no buffs, then in a span of ONE patch they doubled their HP! Not a 20% or 30% buff, but doubled! Makes me want to ask what they were thinking all that time that they insisted warlock pets have sufficient HP.<BR/><BR/>Back on topic, the other thing that I find interesting is how your Antitank set actually shined. With dual specs only a few weeks away, it seems we may be able to overlap a lot of pieces between tanking and DPSing. Certainly a great change there.<BR/><BR/>Generally, I too prefer active skill-based abilities over procs such as this any day of the week. But then again, pretty much every possible buff that would mitigate/avoid damage has already been implemented. Barkskin reduces damage, Survival Instincts increases HP, Evasion increases dodge, Soul Link transfers damage to another entity, we can't block or parry, etc. It seems Blizzard have cornered themselves into coming up with unimaginative new ideas that stem from nothing but making some numbers add up. It's a bit sad because I don't expect this type of development from a company like Blizzard.Spentahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01554570111080075105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-61605147783266741712009-02-16T17:04:00.000-08:002009-02-16T17:04:00.000-08:00Anon - that's a good idea - checking out how the s...Anon - that's a good idea - checking out how the shield is going to be at 80 blues vs end Naxx. I'll try and do that later this week. And yes, it should be a slight nerf to PvP, but I think that's probably acceptable given the huge buff ferals got in 308. <BR/><BR/>Nav - thanks for coming by. I think that it really won't make damage less spiky at all. Some times you won't get a shield, some times you'll get a bunch in a row. Compare this to armor and you'll have a lot spikier damage since it's very similar to avoidance in how much it occurs. What it does mean is that druids won't take as much damage, but it'll come in spikier intervals. At least on trash. On boss mobs the damage should be basically about the same, with potentially higher highs and lower lows.<BR/><BR/>And they've announced how it's going to be (or at least how much they want it to be now - it's a cut in half of SotF.Kalonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05193899462301079034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-43306976019456610952009-02-16T16:55:00.000-08:002009-02-16T16:55:00.000-08:00Nice post.It seems that SD would make us a bit les...Nice post.<BR/><BR/>It seems that SD would make us a bit less spikey for healers, as it attenuates the damage in many cases.<BR/><BR/>How hard SotF is going to get nerfed is to be seen and is the difference between this change being a nerf or a buff.<BR/><BR/>Finally, at the end of the day, an active damage reduction ability is too much like Barkskin. If it were to happen, I suspect they would make it so that you can't activate them both. Along those lines, though, how about tying the shield in with Barkskin? You can collect "charges" that make Barkskin stronger.Spentahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01554570111080075105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-17794675134824903562009-02-15T06:14:00.000-08:002009-02-15T06:14:00.000-08:00I believe this will be a nerf for PvP, as we will ...I believe this will be a nerf for PvP, as we will crit less there and be stunned more. But I wonder also what this will do for us who are still in heroic gear or less. You have 7800 AP? I am at 3700 unbuffed, and when going a heroic with priest, rogue, warlock and mage it will not be much higher. Of course, I can try to persuade my friends to reroll better classes...<BR/><BR/>I've been gearing according to your pre-naxx gear guide (thank you a lot for that!) and if you have time I'd like to see what the numbers mean for that gear.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-39254007631955701882009-02-13T13:57:00.000-08:002009-02-13T13:57:00.000-08:00abraxas - thanks. :)Quellia - I kind of agree. A b...abraxas - thanks. :)<BR/><BR/>Quellia - I kind of agree. A big glowy shield thing might suck unless they make it a super simian sphere (which: awesome) or they make it more druidy, and nature-like.<BR/><BR/>Anon5 - I am wondering about that. If it's like a lot of other .5 second shield timers, it's going to be really insane when it comes to fighting large chunks of mobs, and much better than this math indicates. It might make druids the best multimob tanks. It's hard to say.<BR/><BR/>Anon6 - the uptime isn't the time that a shield exists. It's simply how many shields you'll generate in a given time, assuming that the shields don't overwrite because you got lucky and assuming your crit rate. That's a big assumption against single targets, I agree, but it's not unreasonable. With that in mind the numbers should be a bit more reasonable.Kalonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05193899462301079034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-8009925089720926092009-02-13T13:51:00.000-08:002009-02-13T13:51:00.000-08:00Your numbers are off. Without analyzing them at le...Your numbers are off. Without analyzing them at length, you have the same uptime for a boss with a 1 second attack speed and a boss with a 1.5 second attack speed. Since shield procs are based on your critical hit frequency, higher boss attack speed necessitates lower shield uptime.<BR/><BR/>Since you hit (roughly) twice per 1.5 seconds, or once per second, depending on which way you round, a 40% crit rate, 50% avoidance yields something like an 85% uptime (though that's vs. a 2.0, so admittedly somewhat less vs. 1.5. Though I think 1.5 is rather faster than usual). I believe this would significantly increase the value of the ability and thus suggest a higher armor nerf. TBH I did not look at your numbers in depth after the clear uptime error (also I was slightly confused as to what your uptime numbers were intended to reflect).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-37570689755178232292009-02-09T10:37:00.000-08:002009-02-09T10:37:00.000-08:00In relation to the shield vs multiple mobs, in the...In relation to the shield vs multiple mobs, in the past shields have been very buggy against things that hit really fast. The shield has trouble telling who hit it first and last and ends up absorbing all of the attacks over a small interval. I hope they fixed that but it seems like that might be something fairly difficult to code effectively. Bugs like this would increase the effectiveness of the shield for multiple mobs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-69091381106124837042009-02-09T07:36:00.000-08:002009-02-09T07:36:00.000-08:00I think this change sounds pretty good for druids,...I think this change sounds pretty good for druids, especially for those, like myself, who kitty dps 90% of the time but have to jump into that OT position here and there. <BR/><BR/>The one thing that bothers me is a purely an aesthetic about the proposed ability. A shield sounds alot like a priest or paladin ablity that draws on the holy light. I would like to see this ability manifest itself in a more Druidic nature sort of way. Something like guardian wisps or a leafy green shield animmation. You get the idea where Im going what that,leave it to blizzard to hopefully make it fitting to the druid.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-54995508359094597392009-02-07T10:00:00.000-08:002009-02-07T10:00:00.000-08:00Thanks for all the info amd the math!! Yo do a gre...Thanks for all the info amd the math!! Yo do a great work of gettin us clear info , thanks again for all the good work.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-4607209346205185792009-02-06T12:34:00.000-08:002009-02-06T12:34:00.000-08:00Rohan, thanks for coming by. And yeah, it's the sa...Rohan, thanks for coming by. And yeah, it's the same as block (except for paladins, but whatever) but it's a very different feel compared to what druids have now. <BR/><BR/>Olvar - bears will absolutely take more damage when stunned. That's probably okay though, as all other classes do too. I think the threat nerf was an accident, honestly, and I still think it has something to do with swipe and some buff or debuff not working. Not that worried that they wanted us to go this route that much though...;)<BR/><BR/>Anon1 - having more things to do when tanking would be great. :)<BR/><BR/>Armin - it is tied to being offensive, and that does mean that some times (Sarth3D, Anub'rekhan) it won't work as well as armor. Other times it works far, far better though, and I think the times where you can't attack are small enough to where it won't be a significant disadvantage. I also was a bit surprised; I figured that they'd be doing some kind of block mechanic, but didn't think they'd tie it into hits or use crit as the block rating notion.<BR/><BR/>Anon2 - exactly. It makes bears not as good on stuns, but they're still better than all the other tanks. That seems fair.<BR/><BR/>Anon3 - if you spend 3 points in PT, I will beat you with a tire iron. Aside from it not actually working on Maexxna (it's not a stun, it's a stun-like mechanic) it's simply just a worthless talent for the vast majority of the time. Ulduar may change this ,but I doubt it.<BR/><BR/>Anon4 - the drawback of having the shield be removed with the first hit, statistically, doesn't matter assuming the mobs are doing enough damage to use the full shield's absorption. Taking one reduced hit and a bunch of non-reduced hits really isn't that big a deal; it's the overall damage over time you're taking that's important, and whether it's a bit less from many or a bunch less from one, it ends up being the same. The disadvantage would be if you were getting hit by a small attack first, which used up the shield, and then got hit with a big hit. In that case the shield would be more wasted. An example of this would be something like Sapphiron. But it's still probably not that big a deal, and since it works on magic damage (as far as we know...) it's absorbing damage that would have gone through anyway.<BR/><BR/>Peter, as I'm finding out on the official forums some people are going to be bitter no matter how good they have it. :p<BR/><BR/>Kosta, as I explained above it's not that big of a problem assuming the shield is fully used. Think of instead of SD having one shield, it's an always on ability that reduces every attack, but only reduces it by 2/5th of the current shield. Before you were having two shields in 1.5 seconds being used, then 3 hits that went through unshielded. Now you have 5 hits in 1.5 seconds that all got reduced. But in both cases, the overall damage reduced was the same, and as far as a healer was concerned you took the same damage. <BR/><BR/>The difference is, as I said, when an attack takes the shield but is fully stopped. The other difference is when you face a lot of mobs for whatever reason. In either case the damage will be a bit worse, but should still be better than armor. Armor really is crap for light hitting mob mitigation.<BR/><BR/>Mekias - the sweet spot is around 5 mobs, where you can reasonably guarantee a proc every swipe. After that it starts being not as good - but 'not as good' is still really, really strong compared to armor.Kalonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05193899462301079034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-23083148811640184172009-02-06T11:04:00.000-08:002009-02-06T11:04:00.000-08:00In Multi-mob tanking, one Global CD will likely pr...In Multi-mob tanking, one Global CD will likely proc the shield. But because you have several mobs hitting you, there's a better chance that the shield will be used by the time your next Swipe goes off. So this shield is probably best for 3-5 mobs. Anything more than that and the shield won't do much of anything because it's already being used to it's fullest extent (once per CD).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-7737889393371582102009-02-06T09:45:00.000-08:002009-02-06T09:45:00.000-08:00I have a bit of concern with this, and I can't tel...I have a bit of concern with this, and I can't tell if your numbers Kalon are accounting for it (cause I'm a theorycrafting noob). Please let me know.<BR/><BR/>With the mechanics of the Druid Shield, we have to attack in order for the shield to proc, and it only absorbs from one attack. Now, I'm assuming that even if a single swipe or maul crits on multiple targets, it's only going to create a single shield, due to buff overwriting.<BR/><BR/>So, if we are tanking 5+ mobs, we are being hit 5 times for every 1.5 sec GCD, but, only able to apply our new shield to 2 of those attacks, assuming you get a crit off both your swipe and maul. Is that a big concern, or am I looking at this all wrong?Kostamojenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04669192914012034434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-52058130333213365692009-02-06T07:45:00.000-08:002009-02-06T07:45:00.000-08:00Dont forget it's in blizzards best interest to...Dont forget it's in blizzards best interest to ensure our spec gets better and better as time goes on. Sometimes ppl write as if blizzard are some big bad third party tinkerer who dont really understand what the honest raider has to go through on a nightly basis. They are in fact the EXACT same people who design the bosses & the trash. How convenient!!!<BR/><BR/>Funnily enough I met a top player from a top guild who was just depressed with the class the other day, and the changes made to it in wrath. He confessed to me that druids were 3rd class these days, outclassed by warrs & even pallies. Meeting such a prestigious player, I felt like a total noob for my childlike enthusiasm... why didnt I already know that?! I should have been nodding sagely in agreement instead of gushing on about how OP we are, and that we need to be nerfed. <BR/><BR/>Then I realized 1.9 seconds later that the guy just doesnt know what he's talking about. So much for top players in top guilds eh?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-34663261397677999282009-02-06T06:45:00.000-08:002009-02-06T06:45:00.000-08:00"the benefit for mitigation against a lot of targe..."the benefit for mitigation against a lot of targets is going to be really good and an overall buff."<BR/><BR/>Kalon I love your blog and I'm sorry if I'm being dense, but are there any drawbacks in the mechanic of the shield being removed the first time you get hit?<BR/><BR/>I guess not, since all hits we care about in raiding will be enough to oneshot the shield anyway, but I thought I'd ask.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-10875538665601690782009-02-06T03:51:00.000-08:002009-02-06T03:51:00.000-08:00Hello there, I wanted to add to Olvar's post about...Hello there, I wanted to add to Olvar's post about Bear stuns. Ok, so, it seems that while we are stunned we cannot attack and tho the shield wont pop up, right? But must of PVE feral tanks nowadays have forgotten the Primal Tenacity talent. It reduces 30% incoming damage while stunned. And if ThinkTank, Olvar are right and these changes will go live, that means of wider (or if that talent will have a huge impact on mitigation, smaller?) variety of bear builds. And that "stun damage choice" really fits well with nowadays underestimated Primal Tenacity. (At least I, myself, don't use it and don't have any problems while MT'ing Naxx hc.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-4192767597110235722009-02-06T02:23:00.000-08:002009-02-06T02:23:00.000-08:00Why do you see stuns as such a big problem ?Warrio...Why do you see stuns as such a big problem ?<BR/>Warrior can't avoid/block a hit when stunned either.<BR/>Plus druid has got more armor and barkskin on 1 minute cooldown which you can pretty much pop every or every second trash pull (also while stunned).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-10261651969924168422009-02-06T02:13:00.000-08:002009-02-06T02:13:00.000-08:00well if it works against casters then yeah it will...well if it works against casters then yeah it will be fun. however pvp will take an bit of a dent.<BR/><BR/>already i start havving some doubths. the shield is tied to an offensive ability .. fine and dandy but what if we can't be offensive? like when you are stunned(like some sugested) or not in range or the target is immune? to be honest only stunned is tied to tanking .. but it still applies.<BR/><BR/>there may be also a flip side to this you know. like you can absorb a hit from behind ;)<BR/><BR/>you have to admit thow .. they did surprise us.<BR/>I'm however confused on this part: We are also looking at increasing the sustained (not burst) damage of feral druids in cat form.<BR/>are they unhappy with high (pvp)burst? or low dps? cause i don't really get where they are going at.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-9323298355698754372009-02-05T23:29:00.000-08:002009-02-05T23:29:00.000-08:00Great write up Kalon, what a lot of fun it is pred...Great write up Kalon, what a lot of fun it is predicting what might happen when you dont know. I take it all in that spirit. Personally, I'm most happy that we get to value more stats, which opens up gearing options and loot-lusts yet undreamed of. I'm all for making it more complex - to tell the truth, druid tanking is just a little too easy these days, isnt it? And yes, a reactive use of a shield would be so much more fun, and demand much more of players. Hope they come up with a nice graphic for it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-79405349929864159702009-02-05T23:00:00.000-08:002009-02-05T23:00:00.000-08:00Some observations:Bears will take more damage when...Some observations:<BR/><BR/>Bears will take more damage when stunned. I already hate stunners because I'm not able to generate any aggro, while DPS still has AE fun with the group of enemies. Now bears will take more damage when stunned (due to the armour nerf). In the end this might lead to more deaths with big groups with stunners, since the healer has to concentrate more on the bear and probably has no time to heal the occasional DPS aggro puller.<BR/>In the end this might lead to the bear being even less sought after for AE heavy instances, at least when stunners are involved.<BR/>(I would have liked to see a buff to Thorns to help with passive aggro for such cases...)<BR/><BR/>The armour nerf will probably bring us much closer to Death Knights. Granted, I'm not as well equipped as one of our Death Knights in the guild, but it was a bit of a shock to me that he was pretty close to me in terms of armour and surpasses me in avoidance, due to having dodge and parry. Of course Death Knights cannot block, so it'll be interesting what the end result is.<BR/><BR/>As some have already mentioned, this will be a huge buff against casters.<BR/><BR/>Paranoia mode activated:<BR/>Maybe the threat nerf that some of us are seeing was an intentional way of pushing us into tanking with damage gear. That way we are already mainly using the gear that profits most from the planned changes once they go live.<BR/><BR/>Maybe Blizzard actually does listen to some of the people on the forums, since I'm pretty sure I've read a comment of somehow using crit and AP for mitigation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com