tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post6374449494993847175..comments2023-10-03T03:48:35.523-07:00Comments on ThinkTank: [General] The future of block part 2 - short term fixesKalonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05193899462301079034noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-76273476884095897682009-05-29T11:04:23.798-07:002009-05-29T11:04:23.798-07:00I agree that Rawr is wrong, but WWS's version of u...I agree that Rawr is wrong, but WWS's version of uptime on SD doesn't actually work as a 'true' uptime, since (for example) when SD is down if you didn't get hit, it doesn't matter.<br /><br />Basically the only way to figure out if it's useful is count how many hits you took, and of those how many were absorbed by SD to some degree. That's the 'true' uptime. If it's 43%, I'd imagine that you were facing multiple mobs at once.Kalonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05193899462301079034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-27686115573476830402009-05-29T11:01:39.561-07:002009-05-29T11:01:39.561-07:00Kalon - Rawr appears to be wrong. The last WWS I h...Kalon - Rawr appears to be wrong. The last WWS I have shows SD with an uptime of just over 43%.teflaimehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12858992182120624497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-74510156081924595562009-05-29T09:53:00.526-07:002009-05-29T09:53:00.526-07:00Xarnen - I long for the days when druids can situa...Xarnen - I long for the days when druids can situationally gear depending on the encounter, and it doesn't come down to 'max stam' or 'max threat'. This would be one step in that direction. <br /><br />Michael - I agree, spikiness is pretty scary right now. But part of that is because of other factors, and I brought that up in the next post. The fact is this: as it stands right now the lowest HP tanks are also the spikiest. The highest HP tank is one of the least spiky. That's simply unfair, and it will produce tank imbalances.<br /><br />If you make all tanks somewhat more spiky (with DKs and druids becoming much more spiky, paladins and warriors less spiky) you may be able to reduce boss damage to something a bit less insane. Right now, though, they've got to balance around the tougher tanks. <br /><br />As to not attacking your target, that's so far been one fight. It's problematic, but it's problematic in the same way that silence is. As long as it's not a symptomatic design issue I'm not that worried about it.<br /><br />Baseball - thanks. And Honor might be right - Holy shield could be turned into an uber version of shield block. But that still doesn't answer the fundamental issue right now, which is that block doesnt' scale and isn't relevant. It would just mean paladins have another cooldown. Adding armor to block is a really simple solution, mind you - but it's one that will work, and it'll work right away. <br /><br />Anon(of spell reflect) - that'd be a lot like their 4pT8 bonus. And that's good - warriors should have another short-duration cooldown. But it won't help block be particularly relevant. Vezax doesn't care that you can block magical attacks. :)Kalonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05193899462301079034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-40056727906315113932009-05-29T09:40:11.456-07:002009-05-29T09:40:11.456-07:00Grumpy: according to Rawr your uptime is about 70%...Grumpy: according to Rawr your uptime is about 70%. It depends on the boss, and it is probably lower than that due to things like the server latency, but it's nowhere near 30%. Check out my earlier SD post; the fact is that you can't simply use crit% as a placeholder for uptime. <br /><br />Anon (on flavor) that's the real issue. How do you make druids both the high HP AND the high armor tank? The only way you can is by doing something like crushing blows. Without crushing blows, there's no spike damage for a druid to actually take. <br /><br />Well, unless you drastically reduce their avoidance. Which is a possibility, honestly.Kalonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05193899462301079034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-52784792790376101612009-05-29T04:18:41.188-07:002009-05-29T04:18:41.188-07:00Flavour speaking, as a druid, I can't help thinkin...Flavour speaking, as a druid, I can't help thinking that I'd rather be the high health spiky damage tank, rather that the opposite...even if realistically this is not really ideal for our healers. But fair enough, I am ready to become more spiky to conserve our trade mark which is high HP pools.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-41627691505421566902009-05-28T20:53:48.552-07:002009-05-28T20:53:48.552-07:00UpTime on SD is not just related to crit chance on...UpTime on SD is not just related to crit chance on 1 attack.<br /><br />It relates to boss swing timer, and possible chance to gain a crit in between boss attacks. With Maul, Mangle, Lacerate and Lacerate tick crits in between the bosses swing timer you have 3-4 chances to gain a crit to proc SD.<br /><br />On top of that you also have avoidance that reduces the chance of consuming a charge on any given boss swing.<br /><br />These to factor contribute to give a very high theoretical uptime of SD.<br /><br />In practice it is lower dude to crit processing server lag.Torossonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-68916331057235934572009-05-28T20:23:46.674-07:002009-05-28T20:23:46.674-07:00I just realized that I'm leaving out Leader of the...I just realized that I'm leaving out Leader of the Pack. So, that will pushes my crit to ~32%. Still, I can't count on SD more than a third of the time. <br /><br />And since my dodge is only 37.79%, I'm still expecting that I would get pounded fully a third of the time, under what Halon proposes...Given the health nerf, I'm down to 25k health...I don't think that's enough to be a "spiky" tank.teflaimehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12858992182120624497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-88741208146186911502009-05-28T18:14:23.135-07:002009-05-28T18:14:23.135-07:00According to the Armory, that gives me 18.25% crit...According to the Armory, that gives me 18.25% crit. Sharpened Claws will push that to 24.25%. So you can expect SD to not be up ~75% of the time.teflaimehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12858992182120624497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-30414158654872426232009-05-28T18:00:22.587-07:002009-05-28T18:00:22.587-07:00@Hanzala:
Helm of the Vast Legions
Amulet of Autop...@Hanzala:<br />Helm of the Vast Legions<br />Amulet of Autopsy<br />Trollwoven Spaulders<br />Durable Nerubhide Cape<br />Hero's Dreamwalker Rainments<br />Dragonfriend Bracers<br />Gloves of Fast Reactions<br />Trollwoven Girdle<br />Hero's Dreamwalker Legguards<br />Footwraps of Vile Decietteflaimehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12858992182120624497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-62997760249896295872009-05-28T17:32:55.832-07:002009-05-28T17:32:55.832-07:00i dont know if this has been suggested before, but...i dont know if this has been suggested before, but cannot the mechanic of spell reflect for warriors be improved in such a way to "Raise your shield, reflecting the next spell cast on you or reducing the next magical damage you take by X%. Lasts 5 sec." thots? gimis/akamaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-30818579941983267722009-05-28T13:57:32.651-07:002009-05-28T13:57:32.651-07:00I echo hanzala's comments.
Kalon the changes in g...I echo hanzala's comments.<br /><br />Kalon the changes in general seem great -- I think that buffing Savage Defense substantially at the cost of armor (and possibly stamina) is definitely where we'll see druids be adjusted for 3.2.<br /><br />I'm not fulling buying your thoughts on Paladin changes though -- GC's mentioned already that paladins are due for another cooldown, and I think (along with Honor's hammer) that we'll find that in a reworking of holy shield -- a significantly buffed holy shield that is closer to the current icebound fortitude -- on a 1 minute cooldown.<br /><br />So this still leaves paladins at the bottom of the barrel -- I still think you'll see paladins balanced as the class with the best block (aoe trash tanking is as much their hallmark as high armor is a druid's). Allowing paladins to have armor scale with their Block value solves some of the spikiness while simultaneously giving you leeway in controll their actual block rating.<br /><br />It also means you have a weird reacharound system where strength effectively gives paladins AP, BV, and armor, but maybe that's okay.baseballhttp://www.negativeguild.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-22172650028629172009-05-28T13:55:58.793-07:002009-05-28T13:55:58.793-07:00interesting ideas, but I have to raise two points ...interesting ideas, but I have to raise two points I don't like:<br /><br />a) spikiness is already at the far side from being funny. When a raid wipes simply because you got killed faster then healer can REACT safely (hello Kara prince), it 's simply not fun anymore. Healers should not be forced (as it's currently the case) to spam every GCD just to keep the tank alive. <br /><br />b) my main point against SD - if you can not attack the target (hello Sarth) you loose your mitigation - even more so with these ideas.<br /><br />Rauxis, chosen of CATUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12732546638227497969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-1304995613682795152009-05-28T13:42:19.078-07:002009-05-28T13:42:19.078-07:00@ grumpy
I don't know how you're gearing your dru...@ grumpy<br /><br />I don't know how you're gearing your druid, but with the amount of agility on leather pieces and on weapons, you should easily be hitting 25% crit, before even jumping into bear form, even in only 10man gear.<br /><br />Hell, I had more crit in bear form as a fresh 80.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11315859814604903984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-81246754049970038482009-05-28T12:56:25.658-07:002009-05-28T12:56:25.658-07:00Hmm this kind makes me think that situational gear...Hmm this kind makes me think that situational gearing could be really useful in a lot of situations. If you take something like Emalon where the big damage spike is pretty predictable, you could conceivably get away with the spikier damage gear because you know to time things like barkskin and trinkets, whereas other fights with less predictable damage at lower scales go with the better SD to smoothe it out.<br /><br />One other thing that kind of concerns about the current gear that is out there is all of the strength that comes with tanking jewelery. It might be nice to see the value of strength(beyond AP) have some more value for druids.Xarnenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00832098978664772376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-76771581725118797182009-05-28T12:35:47.868-07:002009-05-28T12:35:47.868-07:00I don't see why you think SD would have really hig...I don't see why you think SD would have really high uptime. It only procs when you crit and crit is pretty low for Bears that don't do 25 mans. I have 18.25% in my bear gear which all 80 epics except for my rings. It's not all 10 man BIS, but a lot of it is 3rd or 4th. <br /><br />So, I don't see how you expect SD would be up most of the time, let alone stack.teflaimehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12858992182120624497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-9105621563529055492009-05-28T12:34:34.749-07:002009-05-28T12:34:34.749-07:00Anon1 - I admit, this is a worry of mine as well. ...Anon1 - I admit, this is a worry of mine as well. SD already has almost 100% uptime in theory (in practice it's closer to 60-70%) but that's still much closer to a paladin's block rate than it is a warrior's. Then again, the net change in a druid gearing for SD would be...lower stamina, higher armor. Which is fine! In fact, that's a great counter. If you want to be the high HP, spiky tank, you can - gear for stam. If you want to be the steady tank, gear for SD (more crit, hit, expertise, AP) - but you'll have less health. I think that's a kind of neat side effect.<br /><br />Xarnen - see above. :)<br /><br />DaveP: I suspect strongly that they'll actually remove SD completely and nerf druids again so that their armor is lower. <br /><br />All: with my pre-heroic gear list, a druid with these changes would go from 25k armor to 20k armor. They'd have 3k AP though, so they'd have a possible 23k armor boost. That is pretty reasonable, especially given that SD would perform better at that point than it did before. And that's without any buffs or heroic gear, much less Naxx-level gear. That's the bare (hah) minimum. I think I'll poke around with that and post about it specifically another day.Kalonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05193899462301079034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-12957165104360598482009-05-28T12:19:08.420-07:002009-05-28T12:19:08.420-07:00This is a neat idea, but I really do think to get ...This is a neat idea, but I really do think to get the most out of it would be to give a little more stamina back to bears. If SD became that much more important, we'd most certainly want to better balance our stats for hit, expertise, agility, and crit to better ensure and scale our SD procs (which also solves most threat issues), along with solid stamina to handle the spikes. I'd be very interested to see how well your proposed ideas scale from the top end geared hardcore raider, to guys like me who still keep their trusty gore-hired legguards to keep any semblance of hit rating along side a mish mash of naxx 10/25 gear, to the developing bear who is working on heroics.Xarnenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00832098978664772376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-91880613112961788372009-05-28T12:04:27.333-07:002009-05-28T12:04:27.333-07:00Nice work, and certainly interesting reading.
Re...Nice work, and certainly interesting reading. <br /><br />Re spikey tanks: I think thats part of the fun: as GC explained a couple of time this week, many players suggest removing the RNG and panic moments from tank damage - when in fact they're what make the game fun. The panic moments are something healers enjoy - if they enjoy demonstrating skill, that is. Also, tanks are rarely chosen based on a healers personal feelings, in my experience. I always communicate with my healers - but its not how RLs, including myself, choose who will tank what. Many healers are reluctant to whine about "spikey" tanks or "mana sponge" tanks, because it makes them look incompetent. Also, a "spikey" tank doesnt necessarily change the healing spells a healer will choose to cast one tiny bit. <br /><br />re the druid ideas: I suspect they wouldnt buff SD right now, though its a nice idea. I think they're too cautious to play with it, lest enterprising druids find ways to exploit it to OP effect.DavePnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-70116252461232634772009-05-28T12:00:06.768-07:002009-05-28T12:00:06.768-07:00This is pretty interesting.
Assuming Savage Def...This is pretty interesting. <br /><br />Assuming Savage Defense gets fixed, your suggestions sound good to me. One thing I'm not sure about is that according to Rawr I'm supposed to have an absorption rate of ~90%, so would I be spiky enough? It seems like your proposed SD changes could make it OP because we can approach 100% uptime/absorption rate pretty easily. At least, I think we can, am I wrong?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-13028519282124195352009-05-28T11:52:05.471-07:002009-05-28T11:52:05.471-07:00Stephane - thanks. :)
Grumpy - I'm actually confu...Stephane - thanks. :)<br /><br />Grumpy - I'm actually confused how you think this wouldn't scale that well at the low end. It scales more with gear than the current model (both with ilvl and with AP), for things that hit softly a druid would be taking even less damage than they are now (both because SD stacks and because they'd get a really high uptime). In terms of low end gear this actually would give a bigger improvement than they have now...provided they're not going for polar gear. How do you figure they'd be so far left behind?<br /><br />And yes, I know healers don't like spiky tanks. Yet druids did fine in TBC when they were very spiky tanks on anything with crushing blows. As I stated before, the alternative is to simply remove SD from druids entirely and make them the 'stable' tank, but that would require another nerf to health. Furthermore, we're not talking huge spikes here; the differentiation in damage should be fairly small compared to other tanks. Will it be there? Yes. Will it be on the order of a crushing blow? Nope.Kalonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05193899462301079034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-86311202887073282352009-05-28T11:43:18.975-07:002009-05-28T11:43:18.975-07:00Oh, and by the way, Healers HATE spiky tanks. With...Oh, and by the way, Healers HATE spiky tanks. With an absolute passion, so that's another reason druids would never get to tank under your regime.teflaimehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12858992182120624497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-40295003310631757112009-05-28T11:41:54.391-07:002009-05-28T11:41:54.391-07:00You completely leave out anyone who isn't in a rai...You completely leave out anyone who isn't in a raiding guild. With your solution, a druid would never tank again outside of a guild where they already have BIS gear for every slot. <br /><br />It's bad enough I'm already forced to DPS because Pallies can't do anything but tank. Now you want me to DPS because my class can't tank.teflaimehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12858992182120624497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1872162580492321772.post-5791164356259346392009-05-28T11:28:12.540-07:002009-05-28T11:28:12.540-07:00My opinion when reading that, is that Blizzard wou...My opinion when reading that, is that Blizzard would do a great move by hiring you.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14724987933033442747noreply@blogger.com